[00:00:00] Scott: Hi, I'm Scott Fulton, the host of the Rebel Diaries podcast. This show will help you learn how to make work better for you, your colleagues and the organization you work for. I believe the modern workplace is broken for too many people with leaders and their teams, drowning in corporate complexity, information overload, and unnecessary levels of stress. 

[00:00:18] Scott: Having spent over 20 years leading disruptive high-performing teams who have won international awards for their impact. I've now dedicated my career to helping coach and train leaders and teams to deliver more value and impact at work whilst reducing the risk of burnout, overload, and wasted effort. 

[00:00:34] Scott: This podcast is dedicated to you and thousands like you who know work can and should be better.

[00:00:39] Scott: You'll get tips and insights from me as well as the amazing guests I invite to be the show, many of them have disrupted their industries and are thought leaders, speakers, and authors who have fascinating stories and advice to share. 

[00:00:50] Scott: Thank you for listening. I'm Scott Fulton and welcome to the Rebel Diaries show. (Ceri discussing why people hold back from communicating properly in teams - I met Ceri many years ago at an Agile on the Beach conference and have kept in touch since)

Hi. And welcome to the rebel diaries podcast. It's been a year. Can you believe it? I launched the show in April, 2022. And somehow I have managed to publish an episode every single week. To be honest with you, I'm surprised I managed to do that. There's been a close call quite a few times. But managed to scrape through. So a big thank you to all the guests who have appeared on the show. 

And of course to you, the listeners. For sticking with me. Uh, throughout the last year, if you have from the beginning or if you're relatively new or maybe this is even your first episode. What I thought would be good would be to just pull together some of my favorite clips from the last year. And share them with you. 

Some of these will be new to, you may have missed these episodes. So it's worth, definitely checking back to catch the full episode. If you'd like these clips. Don't worry. The show is carrying on. I have a new guest lined up for next week and let's see if we can get through another year together. That's enough rambling. I'm going to show. 

[00:01:58] Scott: And this clip I'm chatting to Carrie. She's an agile behavioral coach we are discussing why people hold back from communicating properly in teams

[00:02:08] Scott: When you're helping these teams, I'd imagine one of the things that can cause real difficulty between team members and from the leadership is communication or lack of it, or style of communication?

[00:02:20] Ceri: Yeah. So I see quite a lot of that. And I think what sits behind a lot of the issues around communication is a lot of fear. So a lot of things aren't communicated because either we, we are worried that we're gonna get questions that we won't be able to answer. In which case if we avoid telling people, then we think we avoid answering those questions.

[00:02:45] Ceri: But also when we fear that people aren't going to like what we're telling them and. Both don't want to deal with potential conflict, but also underpinning almost all human behavior is the desire to feel connected, to feel included and wanted. And this happens on a deeply subconscious level.

[00:03:07] Ceri: You're not on a day to day basis. We're not largely aware of that. That need to be connected. And And accepted, but it does drive a lot of the behaviors that we then see when people don't communicate, especially when people don't communicate difficult information or information that they think people might have issue with, and you see this particularly around feedback. So a lot of leaders will avoid giving feedback, save for the the dreaded annual one to one or appraisal at which point that's the time where they then have to say all of the things that they've been avoiding saying for all of this time, for fear of how that individual is going to respond, but also for fear that again, they won't be liked most people want to be liked. Most leaders want to be on a certain level, want to be liked and valued and appreciated. They want people to do work for them and with them because they like to much more than having to crack the whip. So when you then get into those situations and people have to, leaders have to give feedback that's uncomfortable and awkward.

[00:04:10] Ceri: That's why you see things disguised with the feedback sandwich which is where we're trying to smooth the way. We still have to deliver the uncomfortable feedback, but we're desperately trying to soothe the way. So that's a social nicety hugely ineffective. Doesn't really work at all.

[00:04:24] Scott: (David Bracken talking about how he flirts with disaster when it comes to deadlines - I knew David from school and he runs a successful eBay business) And this clip I'm talking to David Brackin. He is a leading entrepreneur in the circular economy. He's a founder of stuff. You sell the E by selling assistant. He is also a managing director of another company. A counselor. A family man. And in this clip, I were talking about how he flirts with disaster when it comes to deadlines. 

[00:04:48] Scott: I juggle so many priorities. It was a fascinating episode. 

[00:04:52] Scott: I know certainly through, reports and presentations, you can potentially just keep doing them and never end, if you don't have that deadline, " oh, I'll rewrite that bit. Or it's not quite right. I'll rewrite that" I mean, I've been trying to write a book for about five years now and I've read the advice is just get it down, just write a bit every day and then you tidy it up at the end, rather than trying to just keep redoing and redoing. 

[00:05:14] David: One of the things I, I try, never to do is never to write on the computer. 

[00:05:18] David: The temptation to write into Word and format as you go, it's terrible because you spend half your time formatting and you know, you write stuff down on pieces of paper, then you translate it into a computer. 

[00:05:30] David: It's much easier to be an editor than it is to be a creator. It's certainly true. So the first thing you should do is do your creation in the most natural way possible and create, and then everything else is an editing job. 

[00:05:40] David: If I have a deadline that really helps me tostart the tasks that we were talking about before, that's probably the one thing that will make me stop doing the washing up and go and get on with the task.

[00:05:49] David: I think in the back of my brain the way I approached deadlines is is to flirt with disaster with them and say "it might get canceled, I might not have to do this. I should leave it right until the last possible minute to find out whether I really do need to do this to, I know, oh, okay. I do need to do this task. And I've only got two hours to do it in, so I better well pull my socks up and get on with it".

[00:06:07] David: And now obviously, if something goes completely wrong at that point, you end up looking a bit silly or a bit late. 

[00:06:11] David: But that's just the way my mind works when it comes to those tasks. 

[00:06:15] Scott: Has that ever happened? 

[00:06:16] David: One of the perils of being the boss within organizations you get, do you do get to change the rules slightly on deadlines. But outside of that for example, in my council work, you have to do stuff before a meeting and the meeting has to happen at a certain time.

[00:06:30] David: And you might be meeting with external people. If you find yourself standing up in front of a group of people trying to decide an issue and you haven't done the thinking yet. There's a very nasty moment when the floor won't swallow you up. Even though you're wishing it would.

[00:06:44] David: So I find that really drives good preparation is never wanting to do that. Never wanting that to happen again, that rush of embarrassment and the heart starts pumping as you think. "Whoops. Maybe I should have thought through that question before"

[00:06:59] Scott: (Zoe Thompson discussing mental health responsibilities for an organisation, managers and individuals. I knew Zoe from my time working in the police when we used to work there at the same time. ) zoe Thompson is a lifestyle on wellbeing, coach. , I knew her from when we worked in the police. 

[00:07:06] Scott: In this clip, we're discussing the mental health responsibilities for an organization, managers and individuals. The full episode is well worth checking out. If you've not listened to it. 

[00:07:17] Scott: you think there's an increasing blurring line with companies and their responsibility for their employee's wellbeing? Versus the employee's personal responsibility for wellbeing? 

[00:07:30] Zoe: I think it's it. It's difficult. Isn't it? because, when I work with managers, I'm really clear in helping them how they word things and how they go into these one-to-ones with staff to say, "this is not about you rolling your sleeves up and fixing people this is about you giving people the support to do what they need to do to help themselves". 

[00:07:55] Zoe: Even just the wording of, "Okay. What do you need from me to support you to do that?" As opposed to, "okay, what can I do to help you?" Because it's not that individual as a manager, it's not the manager's responsibility to help that person get from A to B. We can support people to get from A to B, but we need to be, hands off and giving that support, that guidance. We can't do it for them. You can't force people forward, you can't force people to make changes. I think it's really important for organizations to provide support.

[00:08:31] Zoe: I think in terms of what else is available in the pressures on the NHS waiting lists are huge. So I think it's balancing. How do you support your staff? There's definitely a, real change in what staff need, what support staff need. But I think if you've got it's balancing, isn't it. If you've got a member of staff out sick for six months, what's the cost to the organization.

[00:08:54] Zoe: And I think the last figure I saw is that for every pound invested in mental health support, it's a seven times return on that investment. So there's an element of as an organization, as a business, you want high performing people who are there and who are present. So if you are losing money or it's a cost to your business because people are absent or they are there, but they're not present or focused or getting as much done as they could, then there's a cost to the business. So providing some support to help people with that probably speeds the process up of getting them back or moving them forward to where you want them to be. Is it the company's responsibility? I think it's definitely a joint responsibility because there's individual personal responsibility, but there's also that duty of care as well. And I think that's where finding that balance between what do you do as an organization where is your responsibility as a manager? And then, where is that individual taking responsibility? 

[00:09:55] Zoe: And I think it needs to be almost met halfway of when that individual steps forward to say," I need some support. I can't do this on my own". Then the business, the manager can then enable that if you've got an individual that's not willing to step forward, then that's part of that personal responsibility isn't it? I won't make a very good HR manager. Would I?

[00:10:15] Scott: Some of those personal difficulties and mental health challenges will be triggered by things at home and outside of the workplace. And that's where I guess it is tricky and some managers might find that difficult then in a conversation, if an employee reveals that kind of stuff, they might like, "whoa, I dunno how to deal with this."

[00:10:35] Scott: But equally there's the duty of care as you said for the organization to make sure that their employees are being treated fairly, and well by their managers and their colleagues, and a lack of action to deal with that and stamp that out absolutely is. And I say the organ, I always say the organization as if it's this big faceless thing.

[00:10:55] Scott: So I'm gonna specifically say the leaders in that organization to take action and get rid of bad behavior, but I've seen that doesn't often happen. So what you I'd imagine is going on to some organizations it's creating this mental health problem for employees and the organization's going, "oh, our employees have got mental health problems."

[00:11:12] Scott: Let's bring in some people to help that and not actually fix the root of the problem in 

[00:11:16] Scott: the first place. 

[00:11:17] Zoe: Yeah, absolutely and I think that's the challenge, isn't it of where, what is the root of the problem? And coaching counseling can help the individual with that, but as a business organization and you're talk, it is it's the responsibility of the team leaders and the managers to identify when there's a problem and it is difficult. And a lot of the, I get requests for, managing conflict training or helping managers to have those difficult conversations. Saying nothing isn't always the kindness that people think it is. Actually sometimes those early intervention conversations, are much kinder, even when they're uncomfortable, they're much kinder than not doing anything because these things escalate really quickly and these things take a long time for people to recover from, you talk to people, who've had a bad boss 20 years ago.

[00:12:10] Zoe: They still remember very clearly those interactions and how those interactions felt. And then they'll go into future managers expecting and, they will respond in a different way. It's very hard to undo. It's very easy to allow to happen and very hard to undo. So it's, it is individual responsibility for managers and also team members.

[00:12:30] Zoe: It's the whole ethos of a team is working together and bringing people up and helping support each other. That actually, it's just as important for individuals to call it out too. 

(Moe Choice swearing - Talking about people saying "I don't have time", when it's all a bout what you choose to do with your time:)

[00:12:43] Scott: Moe choice is a co-founder of 12 businesses. And he has been coaching entrepreneurs, leaders and teams since 2005. , there is some swearing in this episode, so, , some of them have crept into the clip. , if I had to pick one episode where I. Laughter most, it was probably this one with Mo , he's quite character. 

[00:13:05] Scott: And I probably will get him back on. , for future episodes. So be sure to check the full episode out if you haven't already. In this clip we are talking about. What people really mean when they say I don't have time.

[00:13:20] Scott: Yeah. It's what you choose to do with your

[00:13:21] Scott: time. Isn't it? Everyone's got 

[00:13:22] Scott: the same mat 

[00:13:23] Moe: That's the awareness thing, right? I don't have time. I don't have time for this, but you're, but you're posting every five minutes on LinkedIn.

[00:13:29] Moe: So, so what do you mean you don't have time get off LinkedIn for a couple of days, 

[00:13:33] Scott: Yeah. 

[00:13:34] Moe: right? I, I, I, I say to people, two hours of reflection a month is enough or one hour of reflection. Every fortnight or half an hour, every week is enough. And the three 

[00:13:46] Moe: questions, where am I going? How do I want to get there?

[00:13:49] Moe: What does it look like in the next week or in the next two weeks or in the next month, if you do that every, every month, right? Or every two weeks or every, you can do it every day. Sometimes I do it every day when I'm really stuck. Scott I'll do it. I'll wake up in the day and say, what does today look like in the ideal?

[00:14:06] Moe: And then at the end of the day, I'll ask myself, did it, did it. Did it match what I planned and if not, why not? And how do I do better tomorrow? 

[00:14:13] Scott: Hm, mm. Yeah. 

[00:14:13] Moe: Steve jobs has that thing right in the commencement speech where he says, if you wake up and look in the mirror every day and say, am I looking forward to today?

[00:14:19] Moe: And for four or five days, the answer is no, you need to change fundamentally change what you're doing. It's the same kind of concept. There's not, there's not that many truths to life. Really. It's just that people say it in different ways. Right. 

[00:14:31] Scott: Yeah, 

[00:14:32] Moe: It's the same thing though. It's like, it's like, who are you?

[00:14:34] Moe: And then who are you gonna blame anyway? What are you gonna blame? Oh, I don't have enough time. Okay. So who are you blaming exactly for that? Yeah.

[00:14:41] Scott: Netflix. They're just

[00:14:42] Scott: tempting me with tempting me with too much TV. It's 

[00:14:45] Scott: too good. 

[00:14:46] Moe: It's that fucking thing. The auto

[00:14:47] Moe: thing that goes to the next step that does my head in. I like, I wanna watch the credits and it's like, it's flicked to the next episode. I can't find the remote 

[00:14:54] Scott: you're like, oh no. Now I've gotta watch it.

[00:14:56] Moe: yeah, it's unbelievable. How, how this, so, so your question I think was, was an important one is the current situa I think it's, it's both because.

[00:15:07] Moe: Never have we had more connection with others, access to knowledge, access to ideas, access to never can we never have, we had a time where we can make money ourselves online without having to get a job and work nine to five. Never 

[00:15:22] Scott: a physical office. 

[00:15:23] Moe: I, I sometimes, you know, I, I, I, my calls start at 11. I don't, I don't do calls before 11.

[00:15:28] Moe: I, I just don't want to get on. I can literally roll out a bed quarter to 11, turn on my, you know, brush my hair, turn on my laptop and start, start work. Literally. Whereas in the old, when I was working at, at, in good street, I'm, I'm up at six in the morning. I got no choice. I'm on the underground with no phone, no phones either in those days.

[00:15:48] Moe: It's like, I used to always be late Scott, because I didn't like waiting. Right. Really? Or that was my excuse. I don't like waiting for people. No, I don't mind waiting. Cause I'm on my phone. Now I get annoyed when people turn up, it's like, oh fuck. I was in the middle of this article. I was watching this, you know, it's like, when you get annoyed, when someone calls you on your phone, it's like, what is the point of the phone?

[00:16:08] Moe: It's like, I was watching this fucking video. Why'd you call me? This is it. So, so life changes and we adapt to it. But I, I, I, I think we've got the best opportunity now to figure out where we want to go. I mean, the fact that people talk about personal development, mental health, wellbeing, um, you know, these things, these are old, old concepts, but everyone's talking about, you know, most companies have a wellbeing officer and mental health first aiders and, and coaching is normal.

[00:16:36] Moe: Now, you know, it has been in America for a while, but it's getting normal in the UK. Um, therapy's normal now, you know, it's, I think this is good. Um, and I think, I think, you know, when you look at these webinars and stuff that people run, people are signing up to these. I, I run a monthly webinar and people sign up to them, you know, so people are interested in, in learning and, and, and where did we have that before?

[00:16:57] Moe: Like, I didn't have that growing up, at least I didn't know about it. So, but, but the, but the other side of it is I'm scrolling on Instagram and I can't get off or I'm, you know, I'm, I was researching personal development on YouTube. Now I'm watching two giraffes fighting over a female giraffe and it's like, how did, how did I get, how did I get, how did I get there?

[00:17:17] Moe: You, you know, it's, it's the rabbit hole. And, and this is the thing about what I was saying earlier about when I get focused on something and I lose track of, but it's like, if you know this, then come up with some STR, put an alarm on your phone, you know?

(Nick Elston - talking about disengagement with work post covid)

[00:17:32] Scott: Nick Elston is a leading inspirational speaker on the lived experience of mental health. And this clip from the show we are talking about. The level of disengagement and causes. Of that disengagement for employees. In a post covid world

[00:17:49] Scott: What kind of behavior are you seeing that driving in corporates? Are, Are people just shutting down? Are they disengaging with work? Are they

[00:17:57] Nick: I think.

[00:17:57] Scott: What's going on?

[00:17:58] Nick: I think there's certainly, there's a lethargy. This is a generalism of course, but there is certainly a lethargy or again, that lack of hope or aspiration, and I think people just become quite, and it's the same with home working. I guess if you look at. This is a big subject, but without going too much down the rabbit hole, if you look at like the conditioning impact of stay home, save lives, which was obviously what we were told for the best part of two years, and I was shielded through a lot of that as well.

[00:18:22] Nick: So that kind of impact of that the, even though that was done to protect us and to do, to put things in place to protect everything and all that kind stuff. The politics isn't the point, but the conditioning impact is stay home, saved lives by default. People start thinking inside is safe and outside isn't safe..

[00:18:39] Nick: That's what we're left with in that sense. So even though I work in the space all the time, I surround myself with fantastic solution focused professionals, psychologists, GPs within my network, my own coaches that in October last year when I first went and flew to an event for the first time in a long time.

[00:18:54] Nick: I felt petrified and knowing this stuff is very different because it has a conditioning impact. And I think for me, that's the impact is the conditioning element of where we are, and I think that's why we live in a very passive aggressive society right now. There's a lot of strong opinions, a lot of platforms to share those opinions on.

[00:19:12] Nick: So I think now more than ever, it needs to be about human to human conversations, especially in the workplace. If you lead a team of 10 people, you're gonna have 10 different experiences of life and business. Right now that's so no more can we generalize. It needs to be human to human, but actually quite simply and quite humanly, it needs to be led by compassion.

[00:19:30] Nick: We don't have to take a competitive approach into conversations with people. We don't have to enforce our beliefs onto people or. To convince somebody to agree with our view of the world, we can listen to people and understand without having to win that conversation. Does that make sense?

[00:19:44] Scott: it does. Yeah. And there's also people are gonna be dealing with a lot more than they would've before. There, there's talk of a. Mental health crisis isn't there in terms of the outcomes of covid, the impact it's had on people and the isolation and that's gonna affect how people perform at work.

[00:19:58] Scott: And it's gonna be reliant on leaders and managers understanding that people aren't always gonna be, you know, they've got stuff going on they may not know about.

[00:20:06] Nick: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that there still needs to be those kind of. It. There's a piece that I've been doing, I write a lot for the HR community as well, like people like C I P D and HR own and stuff, and I've been doing a lot of articles around the use of vulnerability, but also who looks after the people, who looks after people, but actually where are the battle lines when it comes to supporting people and not supporting people.

[00:20:29] Nick: And very often there's extremes of what we consider mental health and wellbeing to be in the workplace. People are either gonna think it's gonna be dry, heavy, boring, that I'm gonna go in and try and fix them. That's not me at all. Or they think I'm gonna light a bonfire outside, run around naked with a jostick

[00:20:45] Nick: I'm up for anything by the way but somewhere in the middle is the truth. So we ever think it's really fluffy or we think it's really dry and therefore it's really hard to engage in that stuff. The other extreme is that if we are a leader, especially a people leader in any way, shape, or form, We have two main reactions to people struggling in front of us.

[00:21:01] Nick: I would try and fix them, which ethically and morally isn't our place to do including myself into that equation, by the way. Or we keep them at arms length because it just seems quite intense to deal with, especially if somebody is at a point of crisis and again, somewhere in the middle to truth.

[00:21:14] Nick: It is important to know how we can support people, but for me the most important question for you is how can you support people? Is giving people the terms of engagement when it comes to this stuff. So I have a playbook of a conversation that, that people can use to safeguard themselves, safeguard the other person, but make sure that they're sign posted to help, that can support them.

[00:21:34] Nick: And I think when we take that approach, that self-protection first approach. We then start to have more conversations with more people, but we're not good at being selfish in the uk and that's the problem.

(Zena Everett )

[00:21:44] Scott: xena. Everett is an in demand speaker on crazy busy-ness and productivity. And she is also an author. Xena. And I really Gerald, I, probably have the most interest in her world of work around helping teams be. Uh, productive and cut-through corporate nonsense, , this clip is about wasteful meetings. We all been in many of those. And pushing back to our leaders.

[00:22:11] Scott: Why do you think it just carries on it sounds so obvious. Doesn't it? Like people are in the meetings themselves and they're walking out, going well, that was a waste of two hours, but nothing seems to change unless people like us come in and say, " this is shit, frankly".

[00:22:25] Scott: I'm sure you're not quite so blunt, but 

[00:22:27] Zena: I, you am. I think you're on something there. Maybe I should be everywhere. I do know. do think people are having really good conversations about this stuff now. And I, I also think there's a problem with gurus isn't there. Everybody wants some kind of wonderful silver bullet.

[00:22:42] Zena: Whereas actually this stuff is just so obvious. It's saying why, like you said, "why are we actually doing this? 

[00:22:52] Zena: What is it that we wanna have at this end, the end of this meeting that we don't have now? "

[00:22:56] Zena: You know what "actually have you got an agenda for that meeting haven't got an agenda? Why are we having a meeting?"

[00:23:02] Zena: All those kind of questions, Actually thinking" I'm not gonna respond to your email that you've sent me at nine o'clock in the evening saying I'm doing this in my own time. I'm not expecting a response." Don't send that. You just press delay sending it's not complicated.

[00:23:17] Zena: I just think it's about I think it's about like everything, good leadership and good boundaries and people standing up for themselves. And I do think people are walking with their feet now and saying, look, It just not gonna work like this anymore.

[00:23:31] Scott: Yeah. And yeah, there's just like bad behaviors and etiquette issues where, I would get it. I'd get an invite to an a meeting with no, it would just be the invite.

[00:23:41] Zena: Yeah.

[00:23:41] Scott: I'd never heard of the meeting before and it'd be like, why do you need me? I'd tentatively respond and say, "okay, what's this meeting about what do you need me for?", rather than just, you're expected to just turn up and then you'll sit through a two hour meeting you never normally attend to be given one action still you pick up actions when you're not even at the meeting go, "oh yeah. This meeting you weren't at here's three actions for you."

[00:24:03] Zena: Yeah.

[00:24:04] Zena: Yeah, I know, but I you wouldn't get on a plane if you didn't know where it was going. And it's the same philosophy. What's even worse, I think is when people allow other people to have access to their calendars. So a lot of this stuff that we thought would be great and time saving isn't.

[00:24:19] Zena: So we've got to get in the habit of pushing back. We've got to learn to sequence and say, "yeah, I can do that, Scott. I can't do it till Tuesday". I always use this analogy. If we were running a testing lab and you came to me and said, "can you put my test tube on right now? Because it's super important and really interesting."

[00:24:35] Zena: And I'm me. And I'm so special. I wouldn't say. "Yeah, absolutely. Let me just, Ugh. Stop the whole line and have all the test tubes crashing off to put yours in because you are lovely". We just say, "yeah, of course I can. It starts tomorrow morning at 7 30 and I promise you'll be the first test tube on and the first test tube off."

[00:24:54] Zena: That's the way it works. But in offices, in knowledge work, we just say yes to everything and we don't push back enough. And we don't, I say to people just automatically ask for it, to push it back, sequence it." I can, I can start that this afternoon or tomorrow morning or next month."

[00:25:09] Zena: 2025, whatever it is or why, how long should it take. And I think there's also, there's also this whole thing about leadership training. I say I'm a leadership coach, but actually I don't think I am. I think people, I think I, I show people how to manage. I help them figure out, oops. I helped them figure it out from themselves, had to manage the, again, there's this whole thing people say, oh, look, I, I coach somebody how to do stuff.

[00:25:33] Zena: I. You don't sometimes you have to tell people what to do. I think we've got so wishy washy and we don't manage. And a lot of the problems is at the kind of junior management level who are really busy, who haven't got time to explain things have never been taught how to actually give feedback and help people with their performance.

[00:25:52] Zena: We were frightened aren't we.

(W rap up)

[00:25:54] Scott: So there you go. That's just some of my favorite clips from the last year. An episode every single week. Um, Uh, yeah, I could have picked more, but the episode would have been far too long. But I've had lots of fun meeting, lots of new people and sharing value with you. My listeners every week. So hopefully that's given you some inspiration to check back some previous episodes or to relisten to some and to look forward to the next year. 

[00:26:22] Scott: As I said, we are carrying on, there will be another episode next week with a new guest. So until then, Bye for now. A big, thank you for listening to the Rebel Diaries show your time is precious, so it is appreciated. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to hit that subscribe button in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss the next one. There's a new episode every Monday morning, ideal for your commute to work or early morning walk. 

[00:26:48] Scott: Until next time, take care be a rebel and deliver work with impact.